S1 Lol, what we've learned

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captmorgan
 
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S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Fri May 27, 2011 3:43 am

Since S1 is drawing to a close, I thought it might be good to put up a "what I've learned" post for everyone to discuss how their season went so hopefully everyone could improve a little and learn something.

-First off, team comps/hard CC wins games. 2 teams evenly matched in a rough sense in the skill department is where games will be decided more times then not in champion select. The team with more hard CC tends to win. By hard CC I mean stuns/fears/roots/taunts/suppression/knock-up's/knock-backs and against heavy caster teams silence can be a hard CC. I've found you need a minimum of 2 "hard CC champs" on your team in every game, or at the bare minimum 1 more hard CC champ then the other team has.

-Communicate (or at least try to) in champion select. For example I won't jungle or play a support unless the team communicates in champ select. Try and build a balanced team (more on what that is later on) while still having people play champs they are comfortable with.

-Build a solid team in champion select: You need an initiator, an AD carry, and AP carry, a secondary initiator/beefy champ and a flex champ who can play whatever role. Oh, by the way, one of those 5 champs needs to jungle to give you 2 solo lanes, so you also need 2 solo lane champ, 2 duo lane champs and a jungler. You can't pick 5 champs who need lots of farm and expect to win when you are competing against each other along with the other team early/mid game for gold.

-Try and keep up with the meta-game and how it changes patch to patch. Pantheon was an awesome champ once upon a time, and he still is one of the best champs in the game for the first 20 minutes, but after 20 minutes his output falls off quickly and drastically even if he was fed and he turns into a back-dooring champ who can kill-steal and nothing else. In my eyes right now, there are only 17 champs not worth playing in solo queue at the moment. Mundo, Fiddle, Gangplank, Heimer, Galio, Karma (she's probably the best of this bunch), Katarina, Kayle (she is playable, but only in certain team comps), LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Mordekaiser, Morgana, Nasus, Pantheon (best champ in the game for the first 20 minutes, terrible champ after that so hope they surrender), Sivir, Tyrndamere (he isnt bad, but he needs more farm then he can reasonably get in a game without being fed bigtime) Twitch, (same as tyrnd, he needs to much farm to be effective unless you are newb stomping). It's not necessarily that these champs are shitty, it's just the alternatives in their "role" are just flat out better. Poppy should be on this list as well, but she is the queen of snowball champs, she is incredible if fed, terrible if not fed. She is just so good if fed that it's tough to call her a "lesser" champ, but if she isn't fed an AD Soraka is more useful then her.

-Buy at least 1 ward every time you go back until your inventory is full. It's not someone elses job to buy a ward, you are part of a team of randoms in solo queue, emphasis on the word team. If that 75g saves me from being killed or helps me get a kill, it more then paid for itself. I got in a habit of automatically adding the cost of the ward to the tally of "how much gold I want before I go back", it made it quite easier to swallow.

-Farm well without pushing your lane. In the first 10 minutes 102 minions spawn for each lane, if you are in a solo lane or playing a "carry champ" you need to get at least 60 of them, more is obviously better. My personal best in that first 10 minutes is 92 minions, I usually get from 65-75. Farming 70 minions in the first 10 minutes nets you roughly 1650 gold not counting champion kills or assists.

-Last but not least, this video is the secret to victory, although I don't agree with the item build anymore. (this video is from august 2010) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Fri May 27, 2011 4:24 am

I learned I will be tanking almost every match in solo queue because everybody wants to be the uber assassin with the awesome K/D ratio, and that as a tank virtually nobody will let you get last hits, therefore negating any reasonable gold you might earn. After that they will bitch and moan when you can't tank 4 people in your lane so they can get kills, call you a noob and tell you how bad you suck...even though they have more deaths, are playing a DPS toon and have no kills.

CC is most definitely the most potent winning factor in a match, I hate this, but it is how it is, generally I tend to see at least 4 people in a team with CC, usually the more 'op' ones at that, by that i mean champs with more than one CC ability which is ridiculous in my opinion, CC does too much already, champs having multiple CC abilities just makes it way off-balance and there is still not enough in the game to counter it, everyone always say 'merc treads' but really, they only help minimally, the better tactic is to try your best to avoid the CC in the first place and hope you can get an opening where you can strike first with teammates, otherwise you will just get hit with on CC effect after another and watch your character stand there and die in the blink of an eye while you are unable to do anything at all. Personally I would like to see some better countering mechanics implemented here, either some form of diminishing returns or maybe even an effect whereby you character can only be affected by one CC and then for a few seconds they cannot be CC-ed again by the same type of effect. I don;t know the solution exactly, but something can be done to balance that out.

Tanky DPS, well it is quite frankly still the best way to go by far, tanky DPS toons can wipe the floor with a straight tank while the tank does little to no damage to them, sometimes they can cut through 2 or 3 people and walk away. I have been on rammus many times and been tower dove by xin zhao pre level 6, watched him knock me up and in a split second I am dead and he flashes away after taking 4 hits from the tower, and this is with bonus health from masteries, bonus armor and reduced damage from masteries, increased health regen and magic resistance from masteries, armor runes, magic resist runes, pretty much everything you can possibly add defensively .

Lifesteal is good, but is kinda OP on champs that already have some from of passive lifesteal or an ability that steals life, you can still stack lifesteal all you want, but spell vamp has been nerfed so it can;t stack (at least on hextech anyway, while lifesteal on hextech still stacks). Given that you can easily build a lot of attack damage, generally with cheaper items, plus attack speed so you attack faster, and that attacking doesn't use any resources while spell vamp only works while you expend resources such as mana or energy (excepting mord and kat of course), and add the fact that you can start off with lifesteal at level 1 as your first item yet there is not a single spell vamp item at that low of a cost, I think it is painfully obvious it's slightly out of balance.

All that said, those things can still be worked around, your team is everything, and I rarely solo queue anymore because, well, it just sucks how incredibly stupid some people can be, or they just leave, or blame everyone else when they are doing badly because of stupid choices. Example, a few matches ago I am on Rammus, so i am the tank, and initiator, I am returning to mid from spawn, I am at the first tower in the lane just out of the base and 2 people on my team are waiting on me before going ahead toward the enemy, smart move, but our Twisted Fate, after a teammate telling him to 'wait for the tank' decides to rush on ahead into 4 of the enemy team members, as he gets within their range, their fifth, Shen, pops out of bushes, taunts him and he gets destroyed, by this time I had made to just barely past the last tower in our lane and he immediately starts flaming me for being a shitty tank, a noob, I need to uninstall the game, blah blah blah, you know the deal I am sure.

Next match I go all premade, played rammus again cuz nobody wanted to tank (as usual) and with some vent communication and a bit of coordinated focusing we dominated and destroyed the enemy, driving them to a surrender as soon as 20 minutes hit. The reason I mention this is because the enemy team had Allistar (2 CC knock up, knock back), Ashe (stun), Kennen (stun), Shen (taunt), and Taric (stun), all hard CC, 2 tanks, and 2 healers, yet we rolled them hard with only 2 CC toons, my taunt and Kassadin's silence, we had no other CC at all on our team. So what captmorgan says is definitely right on the money, team comp and TEAMWORK and communication is the key to winning more than anything else.

I can't say I am a pro player or anything, I have a lot of terrible matches especially lately with this awful DSl lag I get, but when i play with people I know and use ventrilo to communicate so I know who wants to do what, it makes all the difference, I am not a solo VIP star of the team player, I depends on my teammates a lot, and I tend to play some form of support most of the time, i will sacrifice myself in an instant if I think it will save my teams DPS, especially if it's an Ap toon with a Mejai's Soulstealer stacked up.

My point, don't think about what you are doing without considering what your team is doing, be flexible and adapt to their needs not just your own desire to be the best, because you can easily go 28-4-14 and lose the match, I've seen it too many times, in fact many of the teams I've won against that's exactly what happens, 2 or 3 of the enemy get great K/D ratios, but they don't push the lanes, they don't support their team, and because of this, they lose, so what good is a great K/D ratio if you lose the game?

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Fri May 27, 2011 3:27 pm

Actually the hextech revolvers and will of the ancients are the only 2 spellvamp items that are unique. You can stack 5 hextech gunblades and get 100% spellvamp if you so choose. They made the revolvers unique because the new "strat" was for a vlad to get 3 revolvers so he was un-harrassable in-lane. With that item build and nothing else he could heal 200-300 for each transfusion which has a 2 second cooldown at rank 5.

I'd personally jungle as rammus, but if not I would do like I do when I play supports, I get 2 of the 5g/10 items, run my rune page with 3 1g/10 quints and be sure to pick the "greed" mastery in utility for 1g/10s. 14g/10 seconds doesn't sound awesome, but that's 84g/minute, and 840g/10 minutes is pretty awesome especially when it's "free gold". I make sure I keep each of my gold/10 items for a minimum of 20 minutes before I build anything out of them. The only 2 G/10 items I use are the Philo stone and the heart of gold.

Lately I've played only Maokai, Irelia or Jarvin for a tanky champ, Nunu for a jungler(and I play him tanky as well) or Amumu(only if I am sure I will get some cover and support early on in the jungle), Ashe or Corki for ranged dps, brand, Kassadin, Alistar or TF for AP damage, and either zilean/taric/Sona for a support in ranked games, and overall the games have gone well. I'll get 2 g/10 items on all those champs except Brand, Alistar, Ashe, Corki, Zil, Kass and TF.

As far as CC goes, if I'm the tank I want them to blow their CC on me instead of my team, otherwise, it's no crime to take cleanse, buy merc treads and get a quicksilver sash or Banshee's even when playing as a carry. My Ashe build is 2 doran's blades, a brutalizer, CDR boots, bloodthirster and a banshee's, followed by a phantom dancer and the tenacity AS/Crit item in varying orders.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Fri May 27, 2011 9:25 pm

yea I grab quicksilver a lot, it's really quite an underestimated item IMO, cheap, 58 MR and remove all debuffs, hard to beat it really, I do try to get enemies to blow their CD's on me as much as possible, I usually have very few kills on rammus, but tons of assists (as a tank should generally). As for gold, depending on my lane partner (my son lets me get every other last hit, so gold is no problem with him laning) I will grab a philosopher's stone for health and mana regen + 5g, and a heart of gold for another 5g, they pay for themselves over time and allow me to get the gold I need later even I can't get last hits to farm, also in almost any match, somewhere around the early mid-game I will start periodically jungling just to rake in the extra gold as I hop from one lane to another to help initiate team fights, if the buffs are already taken, oh well, at least the smaller golems and wolves and banshees give me gold usually without having to fight someone else over it, though I really like to have the blue buff in particular for the mid game push because usually there will be several team fights almost back to back and it really helps me maintain enough mana to effectively tank.

I don't use cleanse very much tanking since I always get a banshees and most times get a quicksilver sash, however a fun thing with cleanse that really pisses enemies off is on Sivir, her spell shield, + quicksiler + banshees + cleanse is ridiculous, I can almost always get away from any team even if they all have hard CC, add to that her ulti run speed buff + shurelyia's reveree speed boost and even warwick can't catch me. Though Sivir got nerfed into the stone age she is still effective if played very carefully, she's just not a killer anymore, but she can push a lane like no tomorrow and late mid game to late game I can drop a tower in 7 seconds, teleport to another lane and drop another before they can coordinate enough to stop me.

Best lesson I have learned overall though....has to be learning to 'let it go' when someone doesn;t die and is getting away, chasing just gets you ganked and killed and that guy ends up escaping anyway, or even worse getting the killing blow on you as his team jumps on you, either way chasing people is probably the most common mistake I see people make that gets them killed repeatedly. If I don;t get the kill when I wanted it, I just continue laning and wait for another opportunity, it's just not worth it to be greedy.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:03 pm

Another little tidbit.

If you cant keep a 3:1 kills+assists to deaths ratio going as a champ after 10 ranked games, stop playing that champ as you suck with him/her.

-PC-Taishar
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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby -PC-Taishar on Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:03 pm

You should count tower kills in there too. I often get 4-7 tower kills in a game and break even with kill to assist and people piss and moan about it. that kind of pisses me off, since you don't win unless towers go away.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Aye I have to agree with that, anyone that's played with me knows I am not an uber-killer, but I push, push, push, usually I have the most towers / barracks destroyed and I am usually the one who gets the team into the enemy base, I will sacrifice myself in a heartbeat to drop an inhibitor if I think it will mean win the match. Quite a few matches my team has had less kills than the enemy, sometimes only half as many, yet we've won time and again simply because of the push.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:19 pm

-PC-Taishar wrote:You should count tower kills in there too. I often get 4-7 tower kills in a game and break even with kill to assist and people piss and moan about it. that kind of pisses me off, since you don't win unless towers go away.


Tower kills can be a misleading statistic. I'm not saying they aren't important to destroy because obviously they are, but numbers like kills or tower's killed don't mean anything on their own merits. Kills and tower kills only mean you got the last hit. I've had games where I went 3-7-10 and had fantastic games but due to bad match-up's or enemy teams who just ignored everyone and went after me my score looked like shit, just like I've had games where I went 10-4-6 but played bad games where I essentially did nothing but kill-steal. Over the course of 10+ games however, those things even out and the wins and losses go where they belong.

On top of that, once games go past 35 minutes, aceing the other team should get you 2 or 3 towers down just based off respawn timers. On a game-to-game basis numbers can be highly misleading, but over longer sample set's the numbers do start to matter.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby Toede on Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:15 pm

I agree with Morgan, about towers, take for example last night we were up 8-10 kills, they aced us at 45 minutes, they were able to kill from the second tower and our inhib in the 40 seconds it took for us to respawn. The later the game goes, the less towers are a worry, heck at 14 I am diving with mundo and if my team follows we can usually kill the idiots guarding it plus the tower.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:45 am

what you just mentioned with the shitty score happened to me a few days ago. i was doing horrible at
start like 0-4 so they started going straight for me so i basically became bate for my team and started
building annie like a straight tank to survive the initial attacks. i kept dying but my team would ace
theirs. ended up winning an uphill game which i see happen way more often now.

that brings me to towers. towers are only important at start. if you can take one down quick then
your team can start roaming around and fucking up the other teams flow. set up ganks and so on.

at the 45min mark towers don't mean anything. all you need to do is keep the creeps pushed so that
if you ace you can just take a lane quick or you can just backdoor it.

i remember winning one with milph where we had no inhibs left simply becuase we aced at like 50mins in

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:07 pm

During the first 15-20 minutes, killing towers is very important. (which is weird, because that same 15-20m is when you absolutely don't want to push the lane, those 2 things dont seem to go together) After that 15-20m however, killing towers becomes less important.

In those first 15-20m, if you can kill the 3 outer towers of the enemy team and keep your outer towers, you will have a huge advantage. Why? It's simple

-The enemy has to go farther and farther from tower range to farm, making him easier to gank.
-It makes it easier to invade the enemy jungle and control buff's.

After that first 20m however, killing towers is a benefit you get for winning a team fight.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby -PC-Taishar on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:54 pm

towers are not important late game true. But having towers down early affects your ability to gank which in turn gives you better ability to get that all important ace later in the game.

This game is about freedom of motion, just like in real war, control the territory and you win. This is why buying wards is so important (as mentioned earlier). If you think about it, a tower is one big ass ward.

I'll also have to agree with the bad record does not necessarily mean a bad game. Those of you who have played with me know that I'm a very aggressive tower pusher. Often times this results in an entire team coming up from behind me to get the kill. When I have a good team, they anticipate this, and will usually get a tower or two out of it. Or when it comes to team fights I see that I'm not getting a good KD and I'll basically become a monster initiator (zhonya's is awesome for this). And it will usually result in at least a 2 for 1 trade of kills. I've been toying with being OVERLY cautious and probably giving up a few kills and tower kills in order to not die. I'm doing this as an experiment to see if it serves me much better. I've not really noticed a difference ... yet.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:15 pm

Yea i should have clarified my statement to reflect that I meant dropping towers pre-late game, if build's are complete and the game has gone on too long, then really it's mostly about one team or the other getting an ACE or two and just crushing the towers while the other teams is waiting to respawn, what I was referring to was getting those towers dropped and the lane pushed by mid game when builds are still not complete and nobody really has a major advantage, it's all based on a per game basis though, one fed person on the other team who has good map awareness can put a stop to the push easily if my team is not good or paying attention to the map. I have been doing the opposite of Tai lately, trying to figure out how I can be more aggressive and less passive/cautious but it hasn't turned out well for me so far, in fact it's actually been horrible, I'm just not one of those people that's good at ganking and tower diving, I am better suited to supporting my team with CC and item aura's, and depending who I play maybe some heals, attack speed boost or a resurrection (zilean). I can only be moderately aggressive on a couple toons and that heavily depends upon how tanky the opposition is, their teamwork and my teams cooperation. I've started to loathe solo queue and I tend to do much better with my premade buddies, probably because we've started to know each others strengths and weaknesses.

Anyway, yea I didn't mean to sound like towers are the all important game winning thing, but they are definitely a big part of it, and certainly even more the earlier you can get them down. That doesn;t always pan out though, sometimes the other team will see I have dropped 2 or 3 of their towers and hence I become a target of focus from there out and I will find it very difficult to get any likely opportunity to push any others until we win a major team fight. When that is the case I just try to pack with my team as best I can and support.

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Re: S1 Lol, what we've learned

Postby captmorgan on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:27 pm

-PC-Taishar wrote:towers are not important late game true. But having towers down early affects your ability to gank which in turn gives you better ability to get that all important ace later in the game.

This game is about freedom of motion, just like in real war, control the territory and you win. This is why buying wards is so important (as mentioned earlier). If you think about it, a tower is one big ass ward.

I'll also have to agree with the bad record does not necessarily mean a bad game. Those of you who have played with me know that I'm a very aggressive tower pusher. Often times this results in an entire team coming up from behind me to get the kill. When I have a good team, they anticipate this, and will usually get a tower or two out of it. Or when it comes to team fights I see that I'm not getting a good KD and I'll basically become a monster initiator (zhonya's is awesome for this). And it will usually result in at least a 2 for 1 trade of kills. I've been toying with being OVERLY cautious and probably giving up a few kills and tower kills in order to not die. I'm doing this as an experiment to see if it serves me much better. I've not really noticed a difference ... yet.


I try not to pass judgement until I have 10 ranked games played as a champ so the numbers mean something. After 10 ranked games however (presumably with at least that many normal games with that champ) I'll reassess my play with that champ. If I'm not getting at least 3:1 kills+assists:deaths with any champ, I'm obviously doing something wrong. Any less then that and I'm either being to aggressive and dying to much, or not being aggressive enough and going after kills. There is a fine line between the 2, but there is definitely a middle ground to strive for.


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