National Debt

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awp-killer
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Re: National Debt

Postby awp-killer on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:26 pm

Toede wrote: How about we give the tax cuts to the people who can create these jobs and get these people back to work?
This sounds great. Except, who are the “job creators”? You, me? If you had more money, would you create a job?

You need two parts to create a job: I concede that the “job creator” (let’s say a business) needs capital, and the other part is demand for products/services. In this recession, businesses pulled back and sat on large sums of money. And the ones that don’t have capital (or access to it), gained access to capital through huge TARP bailouts. Capital is not this issue. The issue is largely the second part, the level of demand for products/services. We are after all a spending-driven economy. We can increase the demand for products/services by injecting money into the economy (whether through tax cuts or spending). People who get this extra money can spend it (if they desire) for goods/services. Those goods/services come from jobs to supply those goods/services. In a short-term stimulus, this is most efficiently done by those who live paycheck-to-paycheck, like those on unemployment benefits.

The biggest problem with people on unemployment benefits is they are too proud to take that less pay job that may be "underneath" them, and keep relying on the government to support them.
I don’t know if that is necessarily true. Low wage, blue collar jobs are usually the ones that get crushed in a recession. It’s not typically the white-collar people who are getting laid off en masse.

This also creates a redistribution of wealth. Sorry Bob, you make way too much money, we are going to take your hard earned money and give it to the unemployed because obviously we need to stimulate the economy by giving them money for nothing and tax you for being a hard worker.
A safety net, a redistribution of wealth, it’s all semantics. I feel bad that the recession affects Bob, who probably thinks it is unfair since this recession isn’t his fault. Well guess what, it isn’t the person’s fault that got laid off because of the recession, either.

I’m more interested in doing what is best for us as a whole as opposed to getting distracted by these semantics. But since we are talking about it, the whole distribution of wealth is a joke in the first place. How is the richest 1% having more money than the bottom 90% “good” in any economic system? These people are not somehow more deserving nor do they somehow work that much harder than the rest of us. As evidence of just that, you only need to look at how large a role the decisions of these hedge fund managers and CEOs almost bringing down the entire system. Even when it was entirely clear they were undeserving, they still raked in the huge bonuses based on their “performance”. What a joke.

We should get our tax money from the rich. Unlike the poor, they can afford it. Besides, at the end of the day, they are the ones we are really protecting. If we were to hit the (magical) reset button, who has more to lose: a rich person, or someone who already doesn’t have anything?

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Re: National Debt

Postby HangOver on Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:32 pm

yes but the rich people are the ones actually running the country and determining tax policy.

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Re: National Debt

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:58 pm

Hmm 9%, gg

I just did my taxes, my effective rate is 33.7% on a $15,000 income for the year.
Explain how that is fair compared to the guy next door who made $121,000 his rate is approx 11%

Keep in mind that even at 50% he would still have more than quadruple my gross income as take-home $

This is the part of the tax system that pisses me off, that rate pushes me under the gov'ts poverty level and I work my ass into the ground to make that little bit of $, while someone else sits in an air-conditioned building making way more (which is fine) yet paying incredibly much less per dollar in taxes than I do.

I totally disagree with the concept that 'the rich create jobs', personally, I call bullshit on that, big-time no holds barred bullshit. There are tons of jobs that need doing regardless of rich people, many, many of those rich folks are doing nothing to create jobs here in US anyway, they outsource so they can profit even greater, as far as I am concerned it would be fine to tax a rich person less if they can actually show that they have done something to invest in the economy of this country, if not, tax the piss out of them. It's a simple concept I base this on. This system we have will either benefit you or not, if it benefits your life so much that you are afforded exorbitant income well beyond what any person needs to survive, then YOU should pay to support that system since YOU get the most from it, people like me, who are getting next to nothing from this system should not have to support it until such time we begin to reap some kind of reward from it in the first place. The current methods keep people like me right where I am, poor and broke and frankly I am so sick of it I could puke.

I am not saying that there aren't rich folks doing their part, there definitely are, and those ones SHOULD get a break, but there are many more that don;t contribute squat and they make bank because of the loopholes and breaks they can get, and that's not fair to the ones that ARE actually trying to do something. What I do is a very necessary thing anywhere in the world, people need shelter, water, heat, and so forth. My services maintain and create those things for people, so where is my tax break? I don't get one, I get taxed in a higher bracket for the 'privilege' of being 'self-employed', and because my gross income is just slightly over poverty they can tax me to below poverty. I have in past years paid more in taxes than a person with double my income, in physical US dollars. 2001 for example, one of my best friends made $37,000 for the year, he paid $6500 in taxes, I made $18,000 that same year, I had to pay $7876 in taxes. How the hell is that even remotely close to a fair system? That means I had to live off of approx $11,000 for the year, while he had over $30,000 still. And they wonder why us working class people bitch so much about taxation, it's not the taxes it's the unfairness with with they are levied. People like me are getting the least out of this system, and you can claim roads and such are things we get, but you don't realize the type of people we are, we could give two shits about a road and we can do just fine without public water systems, I mean hell, half the time we can;t afford to keep a car going anyway, so wtf do we need a road for? people like me survive and live in a very different world, we don't see things the same way, the tings many people deem necessary mean little to nothing to us because we have already spent a very large part of out lives either without them or unable to use them anyway.

That just takes me back to my simple concept, if the system benefits you so much then you pay for it, after all you get the rewards for it so why shouldn't you? If the system does not benefit me, why the hell would I want to support it until such time it does benefit me?

Flat tax, best idea ever, everyone pay the same percentage regardless of income, most fair and simple plan ever devised.

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Re: National Debt

Postby HangOver on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:01 pm

[Creep]-Tyrant wrote:Flat tax, best idea ever, everyone pay the same percentage regardless of income, most fair and simple plan ever devised.


flat tax would work perfectly ONLY if they remove deductions and write-offs. no matter what, you pay an exact % of your total income. my personal opinion would be a 5% federal and 5% state tax. 10% total of your income. no write-offs, no deductions, no loop holes. you pay 10% of your income to taxes. period. if they did this it would keep more money in everyones pockets and probably earn more tax money than is currently being earned. more money in peoples pockets means more spending which means no recession. the ONLY problem with this is charity donations would basically dry up because rich people don't really care about charity they just want the tax write-off. but i'm sure we could come up with some other incentive to get people to donate since basic human kindness doesn't actually exist.

but as i said, rich people control this country. they simply aren't going to institute a new tax law that isn't beneficial to them. common sense and logic have nothing to do with it. the worst part, for me, is how it will all play out in the public eye. regardless of who has power, democrat or republican, when they pass a new tax law they will swear up and down and argue until they are blue in the face that is THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY and when it STILL benefits only the rich people they will say "well it WOULD work if the *opposite political party* would work with us instead of opposing us on it".

it's a goddamn tired broken record that stupid fucking americans seem to LOVE listening to.

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Re: National Debt

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:11 pm

heh, the old choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich routine

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Re: National Debt

Postby awp-killer on Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:18 pm

The 9% I was talking about was just federal income taxes. It's another 8% for state income and 4% for payroll. But that is still nowhere near 34% How the heck are your high taxes so high, tyrant?

Changing our taxes to a flat tax (with no credits, deductions, etc) would be hugely regressive, and an extraordinary shift of the tax burden from the rich to everyone else. The rich clearly pay a larger portion of the taxes in this country, as they should. I don't understand how you two can argue: 1) the rich should shoulder more of the tax burden and 2) a flat tax would somehow make everything better, at the same time.

flat tax would work perfectly ONLY if they remove deductions and write-offs. no matter what, you pay an exact % of your total income. my personal opinion would be a 5% federal and 5% state tax. 10% total of your income. no write-offs, no deductions, no loop holes. you pay 10% of your income to taxes. period.
Except, your 10% estimate is way off. Hell, payroll tax (medicare/social security) alone is 12%. Try 27% (and that's damn cheap compared to other countries). http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/ ... ped-world/

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Re: National Debt

Postby awp-killer on Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:22 pm

HangOver wrote: regardless of who has power, democrat or republican, when they pass a new tax law they will swear up and down and argue until they are blue in the face that is THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY and when it STILL benefits only the rich people they will say "well it WOULD work if the *opposite political party* would work with us instead of opposing us on it".
I disagree. The democrats OPENLY campaign on raising taxes on people with incomes above $250,000, and (republicans are likewise against it, saying that is "distributing the wealth"). How is the democratic plan a tax benefit for the rich?

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Re: National Debt

Postby HangOver on Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:38 pm

awp-killer wrote:I disagree. The democrats OPENLY campaign on raising taxes on people with incomes above $250,000, and (republicans are likewise against it, saying that is "distributing the wealth"). How is the democratic plan a tax benefit for the rich?


of course they campaign for it. and yet, it will never happen. just like the vast majority of campaign promises never happen. when it comes down to it, the people with the money who pull the strings in washington won't allow it. that's why the dems campaign for it and the republicans strongly oppose it. this way the nation can be divided and nothing of substance will ever get done. status quo. perfect for the people benefiting from the broken way things are now.

i am not a smart enough person to know the proper way to tax people. what i am smart enough to know is that the way we're currently doing it isn't working. they take WAY too much of our money on tax laws that shouldn't exist in the first place. not to mention we're giving OUR money to a government (state and federal) that is completely irresponsible in how they spend it. it's absurd that we accept that. we laugh about the ridiculous overspending on simple things. it's sad.

so americans could (and should) very easily pay less in taxes if our government was forced to get its pathetic act in shape and actually start functioning efficiently. they may need ~30% of our incomes NOW but if they were actually efficient they could get by with 10% easily. i don't care how expensive things are NOW. they need to fix the programs to function properly and efficiently and bam, no need to steal money from your citizens any longer.

the tax issue is just one part of a much larger issue. but as long as democrats and republicans are more concerned with making each other look bad it will never get fixed. it's the hatfield and mccoys on a national level. it's no longer about what's best for the people of the country, it's only about proving that the other side is wrong with what THEY think is best for the people. nothing gets done because no one can cooperate. democrats will say the republicans refuse to cooperate with them and the republicans will say it's the democrats refusing to cooperate. back and forth we go and we have ZERO forward movement.

the system is broken.

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Re: National Debt

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:06 pm

Well my taxes as a sub-contractor have always been around 33-34 percent every year since I can remember, this does not include state state taxes which will amount to another 8-10 percent depending on the given year. I write off anything I can, tools I purchase for work, mileage for fuel costs (so far most years mileage gets me a better break than deducting the actual dollar amount of fuel cost). I have to file as self-employed every year, which automatically begets a higher tax bracket and 'occupational privilege taxes and a special self employment tax. The occupational privilege tax is quite literally a tax for the privilege of being allowed to work, self employment tax is for being allowed to work for myself, not much difference really between the two since they only apply to the self employed in the first place, basically it's a double tax for he same fictional reason. As a self employed person I am not afforded the same breaks as those who file with a W-2, I get a break for being in the poverty level income bracket and I end up paying full taxes even though my income is so low. I don;t have many write offs overall simply because I keep my tools well maintained and very seldom have to replace something, not to mention the fact that i usually cannot afford new ones anyway, even if and when i need them, so if I can;t afford it in the first place, I can't exactly write it off. Another issue that bothers me has nothing to do with taxes at all, just something in the general sense of how people do business overall. If I go to a gas station to buy gas, the price is non-negotiable, if it is $3.79 for a gallon of gas I can't pump the fuel and then haggle with the clerk and tell him I think it's only worth $2, pay him $2 a gallon and walk away, i wouldn't get any fuel or I would be arrested for stealing if I didn't pay the full amount. In my line of work, people very commonly seem to think my prices are always open to negotiation, and many times when I have finished a job, and I am owed a certain amount of money for it, I have to fight and argue with the person to get paid, even though I always give the lowest price in town for a quality job, they feel like they have some right to talk that down to some ridiculous amount, for example, 2 years ago built a large deck addition on someone's house, in WRITING it was agreed they would pay $2 per sq/ft of deck, this included handrails, 2 set of steps and of course the frame and decking itself. The amount totaled up to $2600, an extremely low price, less than half of anyone else had bid on the project, but I needed the work and I thought they seemed like nice people. During the job, they made changes, the deck became a bit larger than originally planned, and i didn't even charge one dime extra for the extra work. Halfway through the job I got a draw for $1000, which I had to argue about to get, and i knew at that point this was going to get shitty. I finished the job, the husband decided he could now haggle the price down since the deck was finished, so he came to me and said 'Okay, it looks really good but I don;t think another $1600 is fair so we're gonna give you $500 and call it even'. I told him we have a written contract, for $2600, that I didn't even charge for them making changes and growing the size of the deck, the remaining $1600 is more than fair since the total price was less than half what anyone else would have charged. He said, and I quote, 'Well you can either take the $500 or nothing, I'm not paying $1600 and you can take that contract to court if you want, you still won't get a dime of my money so i suggest you cut your losses and carry your ass'. Now I have been down this road enough times to know how the courts work on these issues, first there is the crap involved in filing, which costs me money I can't afford, second there is the time lost from working to go file, and go to court, time I could be using to make money, and third, even if you win in court, they do not enforce payment in any way shape or form, I have seen this all too many times. When you win, you basically just get a judgement that says you won, if they don't actually pay you, there is nothing the courts will do, in fact, it doesn't even go against their credit score. These kind of people know they have you over a barrel because you cannot afford to do anything about it, and as long as they keep ripping people like me off, we never will be able to afford to anything about it.
There seriously needs to be some solid legislation in place to prevent this, and have consequences for those people that seem to think because they have money they can just step on people like me. I cannot count anymore how many times stuff like this has happened, or worse times when i didn't get paid anything at all. Funny part about it is the folks who have been the most generous and paid me the most, or given a nice tip have always, every single time, been the folks that have the least and were scraping money for years to save up enough to have the work done they wanted. Rich people wonder why the poor seem to hate them so much, well i can tell you it is these kind of people that create that situation, and when it happens over and over again you get a pretty bad taste in your mouth from it and become a bit bitter and prejudice toward the rich. I have made more money for doing that exact type of job from people with far, far less income than the guy in my story above, in fact, he had a rather exorbitant income, drove a Porsche and a Mercedes Benz to the job, the house I was working on was his 24th vacation home, yes 24th and that is just the ones in NC, not counting his homes in California, Florida and overseas. there is no excuse for this kind of shit, he had the money, easily, but being a greedy prick he knew he could step on someone like me and I would be powerless to do a damn thing about it. This is way to common of an occurrence, ask any contractor or sub-contractor, who rips them off the most, and i guarantee you they will all say the same thing, rich people, doctors, lawyers, and believe it or not POLICE, because they know the justice system is corrupt and full of loopholes designed to serve those with money, those without money have no power, nowhere to turn, and because of them we stay right where we are, right where they want us, underfoot and trampled on.
I promise you this, if and when there is a worldwide apocalypse and the whole system comes crashing down, the rich are gonna die off in mass numbers very quickly, and they are going to survival next to impossible, and survivors like myself will be the ones who have the power and control, because we'll be able to survive just fine without banks, credit cards, taxes or government, and frankly I look forward to that day.

All this crap about money and economy is so superficial, it's a fake system put in place to keep some people on top and others on the bottom, it has nothing to do with what is needed in this world, it keeps poor folks working their asses into the ground for peanuts doing the things that actually REALLY need to be done for the rest of the world to survive while those on top do pretty much useless and unnecessary tasks to keep the system rolling along. Now all that said, i am not saying ALL rich people, there are many that made their way with hard work and dedication, there are many who actually do try and do some good in this world and don;t use their wealth or influence to step on people, there are even those that try to put a stop to it, just not enough of them sadly.

Anyway, I hope nobody takes any of that personally, I'm not a rich-hater, there are some pretty shitty poor folks out there too, many if you gave them a helping hand they would waste it on crack or beer, many that would steal from a friend or neighbor in a heartbeat, I guess overall it's just human nature for many people to turn out to be pieces of shit. I try very hard to become bitter, I usually maintain an optimistic point of view of things and I continue to do what I do giving people the best deal I can, the few that truly appreciate it make it worth it, despite the struggle I endure.

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Re: National Debt

Postby -PC-Taishar on Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:06 am

Tyrant, brother, You really gotta find that enter key. A double break does wonders for readability.

As for the flat tax I don't think that is the way to go. However, AJ, I would point out that under a flat tax it is STILL a percentage, hence the rich would STILL be shouldering more of the burden. The current system has them shoulder an exponential burden the richer they get. However, I'm a proponent of a Fair Tax. This would eliminate ALL taxes except sales tax, and sales tax would necessarily be much higher. Items necessary for living would have no tax. IE food, shelter, and clothing up to 'x' amount (clothing is hard to gauge because you need clothing but you don't NEED Versachi). This means the only time you get taxed is when you spend discretionary income on discretionary items. Since the rich buy buttloads of expensive items, they pay the price when they do it. This would also allow people to keep more of their money and decide how they want to be taxed, if they want to spend on frivolous items they can, but they will pay the price for it. Those that choose not to, would be more financially stable.

A 2nd order effect of this would be the elimination of the whole tax law economy. Many people make a living doing this, and a buttload of government money (YOUR money) is wasted paying shitbag IRS fucks. In the end this is a GREAT thing in my opinion, however, there would be negative repercussions on the economy in the short term.

Another benefit of this structure is that it taxes black market income. Drug dealers make LOADS of money and get taxed on NONE of it. Under this system that new grill they install and those rimms they put on their slammed crown vics are going to put some money into uncle sam's pockets. Money that would otherwise not be there.

The biggest problem with the spending/taxing issue right now is Social Security. IT HAS TO GO AWAY. Everyone remembers Bernie Madoff and how much everyone hated him for the crap he pulled with his ponzi scheme, well that's all SS is. They are taking your money and mine to pay current SS recipients. It is insolvent. If we could alleviate that burden, the democrats would have so much more money to give to people that don't want to work for it.

This is where i garner some bad blood I'm sure. But here goes anyway. Tyrant, you're a contractor, you are no different that hundreds of thousands of other contractors. They operate under the same rules you do. I tried it, I sucked at it, so I got out and did something else. My point is many contractors are very well to do. Rich even. The fact that you aren't is testament that you fall shy of their skill set in some form or fashion. This isn't to say you're a bad builder. I'm sure you are phenomenal craftsman. My brother in law is as well, but being good at doing something doesn't necessarily mean that you earn the right to make a lot of money doing it. This is the basis of the free market. Those that have the intelligence the skill and the wherewithal are the ones that succeed. The rest just get by. My point is just this. If you are unhappy with you're job or where you are at, it's within your power to change it. I had a high school education, and I've NEVER made as little money as you say you are making. Sometimes I've worked 2 jobs and at one point in my life I was working 3. But I've always stayed above the poverty line. Hell you could flip burgers at MacD's and take home more than $11,000. Bend it ever which way ya want, but it's fact. No doubt you could be a manager at a McD's after a year or so, probably even less. Is that what you aspire to do, I highly doubt it, but the fact remains you could make more money doing it.

The free market is a series of choices and execution, one needs to decide where their priorities lie, and execute the best plan of attack to address those priorities. The ones with the best plans make the most money, and incidentally by serving their own best interests, they often serve the best interest of the public by providing a better product, a cheaper product, a more refined or quicker service, etc.

Again I'm not trying to rail on you. I don't doubt your skill or dedication as a craftsman at all, but without a good plan to go with that skill you are destined to poverty. Which is probably why you don't see a lot of millionaire underwater basket weavers. I do, however, agree with you that the system makes it REALLY hard to break the mold and be 'rich' or even upper middle class.

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Re: National Debt

Postby captmorgan on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:23 pm

A flat tax is a suckers bet..

The less you make the higher the percentage of your income is taxed. A guy who makes a million a year with a 5% tax rate is paying $50k, a guy who makes $40k/yr is paying $2k. Who do you think is going to feel that tax burden more? We already have a flat tax on gas, who feels the bite of gas prices rising more, the guy making 40k/year or the guy making 1m/year?

The problem with any tax discussion is the liberals act like everyone making more money then them is a greedy prick and they should be taxed into oblivion, and the conservatives think they see any benefit out of tax cuts. Remember, the top 1% of all taxpayers pay for 40% of the country, and that top 1% is who most tax cuts truly benefit. The guy who earned $1B/yr had his tax liability drop from $512M to $418M. Is he then forced to invest that $94M so as to create AMERICAN jobs? Of course not, he could play the futures market, or invest in a company moving operations overseas to increase profit margin, or he could simply buy stocks that are not being offered in an IPO, so it's not truly an investment that creates AMERICAN jobs.


If you truly care about solving our national debt crisis, tell your elected officials to enforce better monetary policy and force the Chinese to do what they said they would to become part of the WTO and G-20, run the same fiscal policy as the rest of the nations, with floating currency. Maybe we wouldnt be shipping so many jobs overseas if companies weren't essentially given a subsidy to do so with exchange rates. When it's cheaper to buy the raw materials from the US, ship them overseas to create products then ship them back here to sell then it is to make them here, that's a monetary policy issue and not a tax issue, but I wouldn't expect a drunken redneck like Toede to understand that. :P

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Re: National Debt

Postby captmorgan on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:35 pm

awp-killer wrote:
HangOver wrote: regardless of who has power, democrat or republican, when they pass a new tax law they will swear up and down and argue until they are blue in the face that is THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY and when it STILL benefits only the rich people they will say "well it WOULD work if the *opposite political party* would work with us instead of opposing us on it".
I disagree. The democrats OPENLY campaign on raising taxes on people with incomes above $250,000, and (republicans are likewise against it, saying that is "distributing the wealth"). How is the democratic plan a tax benefit for the rich?


It theoretically is a huge benefit for the rich, but not in reality. If those higher taxes resulted in a better education system a more highly trained workforce would in fact raise salaries, thus giving them more income. It would also do better for the poors more opportunities to improve one's education would in most cases translate to better jobs and more income. Of course, our education system is so fucked you get a far better education in Canada then in the US should one choose to not be a dumb fuck, so Canada I guess is finally good for something besides beer and good comedians.

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Re: National Debt

Postby HangOver on Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:03 pm

not a day goes by that i don't miss john candy.

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Re: National Debt

Postby [Creep]-Tyrant on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:59 pm

Sorry about that long post without enough breaks, I was mostly ranting, and re-calculating I made an error anyway, the Fed taxes are about $4000, which knocks that 33.7% down to around 26%, still ridiculous, but anyway, my mistake, with state included it jumps to the 333.75 mark I mentioned above. I guess in my haste I got the numbers mixed up or something, but I always go over my figures at least 3 times before finally filing just to make sure I don't send in any mistakes.
I agree with you actually Tai on the point of success of some contractors vs. others, I am a terrible businessman in the sense that I don;t have the nerve it takes to rip people off, and I always feel like I am charging too much for jobs, then I get talked down from an already lower price than any competitor would accept. This is definitely my fault at least in part, and I have known it for along time, yet never have I been able to break the habit.

The part that gets me the most angry is that so many times (the overwhelming majority of the time) I come behind other contractors that already did the job I am bidding on, because they did a lousy job for which they were paid twice as much, if they even finished it. It pisses me off to no end to see the assholes riding around in nice $40,000 trucks with tons of nice equipment and plenty of money they don't deserve at all because they are inept, they cheat by cutting corners and they rip their customers off in the process. This happens at an alarming rate, it's disgusting, and gives all of us contractors a bad name to so many people that they become very sketchy about paying anything other than a sub-par price.

I don't agree that with the part that if are good at what you do doesn't mean you deserve to make good money, of course you deserve to make good money, or at least a fair enough wage to live off of, regardless of your business savvy. To say otherwise implies that a person deserves to make more money for better con-artist skills rather than for the skills to complete the task needed. The problem is there aren't many laws that regulate what we do, there is no minimum wage to speak of, and no enforcement when people refuse to pay for the services, and little to no penalties for the contractors that do lousy work. There is nothing to regulate the quality of services rendered like there are in almost all other forms of work (ie. you can't build cars that fall apart in a week of driving). The amount we make should be directly relevant to the type of job, and quality of work, not based on your salesman skills. just because you can sell doesn't mean you can do the job right, so how is it fair to say that is worth more money?

I've seen, and known all too many contractors that are great salesmen, and have made a small fortune, yet (and not to brag) the quality of work and the diversity of my skill-set is far, far greater than theirs, they are just better and 'baffling people with bullshit', so how does that mean they deserve to make more money? There are in reality extremely few who possess the needed skills for the work, AND the salesmen skills simultaneously, although the few that do posses them both tend to be extremely successful, which they deserve by all rights.

What sucks worse for me personally is just the general decline in the market overall, illegal immigration has obliterated the construction jobs market, the limited laws surrounding how we are employed have made it insanely easy for contractors to get away with using illegally hired help without penalty while they make themselves a fortune of the working backs of poor people from another country. I used to make $30 an hour at one point, since the rash of illegal immigration, that has become all but impossible to make, and I suppose that is why I feel so badly, because I was just finally at that point where I was moving up the ladder in this business, finally making decent enough money to live and afford to pay all my bills on time and keep my vehicle and equipment maintained, to fall back down the ladder and be reduced to wages I made back in the early 90's is insulting, degrading, and extremely disappointing.

In short, I know I am good at what I do, without question or doubt, I've been building houses (or working one of the affiliated trades) for almost a quarter of a century now, I refuse to cut corners, I don't do half ass work, and I take pride in making sure I do the job in a manner that exceeds expectations. I feel I should make a decent living because of that, not because I know how to bullshit people and sell a snowball to Eskimo.

I didn't exactly manage to put what I mean into the words I wanted so I hope you are able to pull from this what I meant, I know text can be so deceiving sometimes what is written is interpreted in a completely different manner than it was intended.

PS: Is that format any better? Hehe

captmorgan
 
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Re: National Debt

Postby captmorgan on Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:28 pm

I'm a self-employed painter, and 2/3's of the job is being a good salesman. People in general are impressed with style over substance, and that's not just relevant to contracting in construction.

Assuming you are telling the truth about your skills, (and I'm not insinuating otherwise mind you) if you are a quality builder who cant get work, it comes down to a few possible reasons.. Again, I'm not insinuating anything, just stating from my experience what the leading causes of failure for construction contractors.

-You have a drug problem.... I've smoked pot for 25 years, but never on the job, and I refrain from partaking whenever I'm coming up on a big job.

-You have a personality/negative attitude that rubs people the wrong way which therefore limits your job opportunities.... I've been an asshole for 40 years, but I swallow my typical comments when I'm trying to drum up work or on the job and I do everything I can to keep my big fucking mouth shut when I'm around other contractors. I piss off some plumber he might talk badly about me to a prospective customer down the road and cost me money.

-You lack the resources and legal requirements to handle big jobs.... I got bonded and invest in my tools and equipment every time I can.

-You lack references.... If you expect to get a job worth thousands of dollars, you had better be able to provide references to people whom you have already done work for who will speak well of you on roughly the same price range of job. If you are bidding on a $4,000.00 job and give me references to contact to which you have done $400.00 jobs I'll probably pass on you.

-Last, but not least, you lack the drive to go out and drum up work. I'm constantly on Craigslist looking for jobs in my area, I spend time going out to prospective jobs looking for customers. I hit up mobile home parks looking for people who want their decks painted/stained/weatherproofed even though those jobs are chump change, because a small job can very well lead to a bigger one.


I hope you don't take this post personally as my intent isn't to slam someone I don't even know, I'm just trying to give advice. If I could only pull down $15k/yr doing contracting, I'd dump it and hit up McDonalds for work.

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