Collateral Murder

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buzz
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Collateral Murder

Postby buzz on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:12 am

Did everyone see the wikileaks.org video of an Apache helicopter taking out a bunch of Iraqi's including 2 Reuters news staff? Now to me, this looks pretty damn fucked up .. What do you guys think?

Original site: http://www.collateralmurder.com/ .. Whole story there including timelines, downloads, etc..


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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby HangOver on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:59 am

i DESPISE media sensationalism. those reporters knew the risks of entering a warzone. they were loitering with armed enemy combatants. i'm not saying it was "RIGHT" but it certainly isn't as "WRONG" as the media likes to paint. and that idiot that drives into a combat zone with his fucking kids in the car ... shame on him. i feel bad for the gunner that has to live with it but common sense would have prevented the errors here.

there was an america patrol nearby. the job of the apache is to prevent them from coming under attack. there were armed enemy. they were eliminated.

war is hell.

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:32 am

that's what happens when war looks like a video game. your just shotting shit on your screen, no biggie.

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby buzz on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:39 pm

The van carrying kids into an area that was just blown to shit and the helicopter still in the air. Yeah, that was a dumb idea .. However i'm not seeing where they see AK-47s? From what it seems, the guy has the camera and the gunner thinks its an AK ..

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby HangOver on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:23 pm

[ img ]

it's super easy to analyze the situation when you can pause and zoom a recorded video but this was happening in real time for these guys. they saw what appears to be armed men gathering in an area ahead of a patrol. it's unfortunate if these were just some friends hanging out but it looks like they have guns to me.

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:50 pm

yeah it looked like some guys did have something. i was talking more about the way they talk about it. sucks
watching video of this shit. being so cool about killing people, it's rough.

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby awp-killer on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:32 pm

HangOver wrote:i DESPISE media sensationalism. those reporters knew the risks of entering a warzone. they were loitering with armed enemy combatants. i'm not saying it was "RIGHT" but it certainly isn't as "WRONG" as the media likes to paint.
What enemy combatants? All I see is a few guys hanging out. Has the media even reported this yet?

As I said in the other thread, this doesn't give me the impression this is a rare thing. Very few people in that country are journalists whose companies are ready to start making demands of the US and FOIA requests, but those are the only ones we are really likely to hear about.

i feel bad for the gunner that has to live with it but common sense would have prevented the errors here.
Common sense would have prevented it. Too bad the gunner has none. And from the sounds of it, the gunner will have no problem 'living with himself'. Even in the video he is shootin the shit with the guy he is talking to. Maybe he should take his job a little more seriously, and err on the side of "not blowing shit up" when you get bored watching a crummy black and white video all day.

And if they did have guns and our actions were justified, is this the level of proof we need to start blowing the whole block up? A few dark spots on a crappy black and white video camera which may or may not be weapons? Jesus fuck.

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby Grace on Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:12 am

that is a raw argument....
to sit there and judge the gunner in a hot seat, who asked his CO's and anybody else up that food chain if he had permission, no gun wielding person is able to fire with out a clean rule of engagement, the second that the rule of engagement wasn't clear , which was here in this video, he barked up the chain, asking, sure he begged but still asked......fired....stop....then asked again if he can fire.

common sense...if it was all the same nobody would be having issues and nobody would be smart or dumb, cus it'd all be common sense. If there was common sense, then everybody would be pro-health care bill then against it, for whatever the cost, cus we could be having little Einsteins dieing off early because they had little no health coverage.

Common sense says, omg i'm a war photographer who is in a hot zone, where just a block up the road there was a firefight, to which i drove to and found nobody, then i found these guys with guns up the road and we got out of car to get closer to them so that i get some more sweet award winning photos. Sure there are dangers, but with with a sound news agency and i look and speak Arabic, so i should be ok.
So what does the photographer do? he gathers information from these calm, gun totin folks.
for whatever was said between them, the men lead them to a street, not to just look down the street, but they peered and leaned around the corner as if he was getting an assessment of sorts. it's not like they were all lined up down the street, one dood, looked around the corner in an act of to see if it was "clear"

WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war *wikileak*


simply doing their jobs...that is very curious.
army guy in chopper shooting at armed .....what should we call them......we'll give them the benifit of the doubt and call them armed civilians who are breaking a federal iraq law....NO GUNS ALLOWED in iraq unless you're in the armed forces or police. i don't think these guys are either. if they were ,they be in uniform no? So you're this gunner, who has his fellow buddies a few blocks away trying to clean up and record the last firefight they were in, now you got some jackass gathering up with a mass of people, started with two getting out of a car, and ended up with 8 to 11 standing on a corner. ( please note when the ground troops came in, which way they came to the court yard, yes...the very street they were looking down) so again, you're this no common sense gunner who sees this, and knows that his fellow American...fuck even being American, that his fellow soldiers have a very serious threat if they come down this street, so what does this gunner do?
he reports the shit out of it, he spoted guns didn't he? why didn't he just open the fire the second he saw the ak? tell me, what about his lack of common sense that told him he shouldn't open fire RIGHT THERE?
Is it not a kill or be killed world out there in the sand? If you lived in any major city and you ran into a group of people who look like gangsters and all holding a weapon of sorts on their persons, would you feel that it's a safe environment? These journalist get hazard pay for being there, they assumed the risk,, and apparently either the thrill or the pay was enough for them to risk it.

The only stupid thing i saw here was a father risk his children's lives in hope to save a wounded man. Maybe he didn't have too much of a chance to think when he turned a corner in his beloved war torn country, that he was in a hot zone that was just fresh from the heat of carnage. but all he saw as he took that turn was a blood covered man attempting to save himself, there are no tanks nor people on the ground to prove to this driver that it was still hot in there. again though, the gunner stopped shooting, reported what he was seeing and asked permission to open up. The stupid thing was that CO giving him the green light, even in the voice, you could pick up the co's reluctance to give the go. The smarter thing to have done, IMO as i sit here in my AC'd apartment, staring at my ball n chain who is willing to give it up to me at a whim, was to track that van to see if it would lead one to a hide out to kill more "bastards", but that didn't happen. hotel 2-6 gave the go, he was questioned by bushmaster 6, scrutinized by bushmaster 6 so clearly that even crazyhorse 1-8 regurgitated the grounds on which hotel 2-6 gave the go.

what i choose to believe from what i saw and read is this.
that photographer and new agency guy was at the wrong place at the wrong time who got too comfortable with their environment.
the gunner only did what he was taught, drilled, quized, questioned,and trained for. And just because he was cold and callous about the event does not make him wrong or unmoral. What i heard there was a change of tone, as more of a coping mechanism then a justification. Pre-girl #1 getting pulled out, the com was just full. full of patting each other on the back and giving out bj's. Post girl #2 getting out. plz note the conversation, it slowed, dropped a octave, and at the end of the short version, making that "that's what they get for bringing their children to battle" then the later 'thats right" that is the same voice that said "you shoot, i'll talk" the person that replied "that's right" is not the gunner, that is crazy horse 1-8 pilot "kyle". the name was referenced from the younger voice, which is the gunner. "shoot damnit" where he's talking to himself cus he can't figure out the gun, because he has the same issue again,and again and again. At every engagement the gunner had issues. azimuth limit? young? yes very, he was teh most excited and worked up. He made it sound like a game...cruel? i guess....but wrong? it seems so much more like a coping act. maybe i'm reaching, but i suppose i chose to believe that he wasn't that cold, again though...isn't that what you want fighting for you? a cold callus killing machine? maybe a slightly more mature one but again, adrenaline pumping through his veins and he doesn't have the slightest grip on it. he's fresh out of school. I would not doubt him to be 18 or 19 years old. but hell, i still can't find anything he did wrong besides not reading the manual on how to be a gunner.

If you watched the full version you'll see that they chased 6+ men into a building. we do not know if they were from the court yard scene or the one previous to that, they were not clear on "previous engagement", so the gunner asks, "did it look good?" talking about his missile into the building, i mean who says that if he's fired that damn thing for a months worth.....he would have a better grip on himself and he'd prob would know where the controls are and what it means that he can't shoot his gun when the target is above the choppers horizontal plane

All this video showed me was the cost of war, and how some situation is too complicated to place some safe guard rule so that it doesn't happen again, that is IF those guys on the ground were truly just civilians and not the guys who were shooting down on to hotel 2-6's group. And that the the RPG that was found under one of the bodies was "planted" by the troops, and when they gathered at the corner there, this is their regular practice to peer around corners before crossing the street, then yeah, there is something wrong here.
But regardless of the immaturity of the gunner, our militarys rule of engagement was well executed and instilled into the gunner. It was not at-will shooting, it was a green light call. granted hotel 2-6 didn't sound too confident when questioned about his green light, but that shouldn't change the level of threat he was under. I"m sorry but if i was told there was a group of guys with not only just ak 47, as if that wasn't enough, but at least 1 rpg, pointed my way...uhmm...yeah....i'd prob give a green light, considering they were "taking small arms fire"

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Re: Collateral Murder

Postby HangOver on Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:41 am

-wicked-toon-X wrote:yeah it looked like some guys did have something. i was talking more about the way they talk about it. sucks
watching video of this shit. being so cool about killing people, it's rough.


yeah. i think that's pretty common in modern warfare. like you said, when war becomes a video game, it's easy to be detached from it. also when you're in combat you tend to view your enemy as non-human. it helps in this case that these worthless fucks actually ARE animals. when your buddies are dying you hate the enemy so much that killing them is a pleasure. add the training/brainwashing and then the detachment of doing your killing through a video screen and it's really simple.


awp-killer wrote:What enemy combatants? All I see is a few guys hanging out. Has the media even reported this yet?


as i said, it's easy to judge the video from a seat behind a computer screen years after it happened. when we can pause/zoom and analyze every frame. the gunner didn't have that luxury. he saw what he thought were armed men (and most likely WERE), he requested and received permission to fire and eliminated the perceived threat to our ground forces. he's been trained to analyze what he sees on that video screen and the people screaming in outrage in their comfortable office chairs are not.

awp-killer wrote:As I said in the other thread, this doesn't give me the impression this is a rare thing. Very few people in that country are journalists whose companies are ready to start making demands of the US and FOIA requests, but those are the only ones we are really likely to hear about.


i'm sure it happens occasionally. war is not a pretty thing and never has been. americans have become some pacified into thinking that our modern technology somehow makes war less ugly. then when they see the raw ugliness of war, they are outraged. you can make the argument all you want that we shouldn't BE there (and i wouldn't disagree with you anymore) but the fact is we ARE there and it IS war. we've been at war for 7 years in that country and if those were "innocent" civilians they should have known better than to loiter around holding objects that "appear" to be weapons and sneaking peeks at the gunship while taking cover. common sense.

awp-killer wrote:Common sense would have prevented it. Too bad the gunner has none. And from the sounds of it, the gunner will have no problem 'living with himself'. Even in the video he is shootin the shit with the guy he is talking to. Maybe he should take his job a little more seriously, and err on the side of "not blowing shit up" when you get bored watching a crummy black and white video all day.

And if they did have guns and our actions were justified, is this the level of proof we need to start blowing the whole block up? A few dark spots on a crappy black and white video camera which may or may not be weapons? Jesus fuck.


they are trained to spot these things on their video screens. perhaps i'm wrong but i would guess the video we're watching isn't the same quality as the videos THEY see when they are flying around. i'm guessing it's been compressed for the web. either way, even in the grainy video it looks to me like they are holding weapons.

i agree with you though. when i watched the video my first reaction was "fuck, is that all the proof they need to just start blasting?" it does seem a little ... lax. but again, these guys are trained to spot enemy/weapons and if they say they saw weapons then they probably did and if not, well, we all make mistakes. yes, this being a mistake is a little bit worse than me misplacing a semi-colon in my latest php script but still. to err is human.

so maybe the gunner err'd. or maybe the "innocent" civilians err'd (by standing around holding brooms like ak47s). it's not likely we'll ever know the 'truth' anyway.


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