What is Cap and Trade all about?

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Router
 
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What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby Router on Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:45 pm

I have wondered what this is all abour, here it is in a nutshell. Any discussion would be nice.


What is "cap and trade"?

An energy bill that passed the House of Representatives last month aims to use a "cap-and-trade" incentive system to reduce air pollution from carbon dioxide. The gas is believed to contribute to global warming by trapping heat in the Earth's atmosphere. The proposed system would set a limit, or cap, on nationwide carbon emissions. Companies would be allotted pollution credits they could buy if they wanted to exceed the cap, and sell if they already cut their emissions. Over time, the government would lower the cap, forcing polluters to clean up, purchase credits from cleaner counterparts, or offset the pollution they create through other means, like planting trees. The government has successfully used a cap-and-trade system to reduce sulfur dioxide emissions that cause acid rain.

Would this stop climate change?

Many countries besides the United States emit greenhouse gases, but the bill would regulate only U.S. emissions. Even if it meets its goal of cutting U.S. emissions by 17 percent below 2005 levels in 2020, the Department of Energy estimates the bill would reduce world emissions by just 3 percent. But without U.S. action, polluters like China would be unlikely to address their own problems and enable further progress, advocates say.

How would this affect the economy and consumers?

It depends on whom you listen to. Democrats who back the bill say it would create "green" jobs as more wind turbines and solar panels are built, while Republicans say it would kill jobs by driving up energy costs for manufacturers.

Projected consumer costs also depend on who's making the forecast. The Environmental Protection Agency and nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimate that meeting the greenhouse gas targets in the House bill can be achieved at a yearly cost of less than $200 per household in 2020. The conservative Heritage Foundation says it would eventually hike energy costs by close to $3,000 yearly for a family of four.

What else is in the bill?

Among other things, it would require utilities to meet 20 percent of their power needs by 2020 through renewable energy sources. It would provide billions of dollars to research technology that someday might make it possible to capture and sequester or remove the carbon emissions from burning coal. And it would set standards for making buildings more energy-efficient.

Do corporations support the bill?

Some do. They include Dow Chemical, General Electric, Nike, Starbucks, John Deere, AEP, Duke Energy and Shell Oil Co., as well as labor, trade groups and environmental groups such as the AFL-CIO, Edison Electric Institute, Sierra Club and Environmental Defense Fund.

Who doesn't like the bill, and why?

Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, the American Petroleum Institute, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers and the Ohio Coal Association are among the opponents. The environmental groups say it won't cut emissions fast enough and caters too much to businesses, while the industry groups maintain it would drive up energy costs. The Petroleum Institute says gasoline costs would rise because the bill shortchanges refiners on pollution credits while giving electricity producers more favorable treatment.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby awp-killer on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:18 pm

This was a pretty good description. A few things:

What is "cap and trade"?
Not all of the credits will be merely "allotted" or just given away to energy companies. Right now, they are allowed to emit as much as they want. Instead, these CO2 emitters will have to pay to pollute, let's say $20/ton of CO2. The actual amount will depend on an auction. Nationwide, we will sell credits (the right to emit CO2). We can control how many we sell, which is how we set the cap. To lessen the blow to industry, we don't sell all of them. At first, we will give most of the credits out. Who gets these free credits, depends on how much they currently emit and how much power they produce.

Would this stop climate change?
This paragraph takes things out of context a little. It wouldn't "stop" climate change, but it will mitigate the effects. We are only reducing our CO2 emissions, not stopping them. Our contribution to the global cuts in the near term will be small, but we are not alone. The rest of the world is enacting cap and trade also, I believe with a global goal of cutting GHG by 80% by 2050.

Democrats who back the bill say it would create "green" jobs as more wind turbines and solar panels are built, while Republicans say it would kill jobs by driving up energy costs for manufacturers.
The real answer is it will drive up costs AND create lot's of "green" jobs. However, I'm sorry to say, but energy costs are artificially low because at the moment fossil fuel plants are highly "subsidized", in the sense that they don't have the pay for any of their pollution. Depending on the pollution some plants are restricted on how much they can pollute (if they aren't grandfathered in, as many are), but there are no fees for their pollution/byproducts. That means that fossil fuel plants don't have to pay for it, but it still costs us as a society. The true cost of fossil fuels is much higher (probably about twice as high as they are now if you include all the externalities...more for coal, less for natural gas). Cap and Trade will eventually help internalize some of these costs. It will help make a level playing field for the energy market, and for supply and demand to choose the best energy options.

What else is in the bill?

Among other things, it would require utilities to meet 20 percent of their power needs by 2020 through renewable energy sources.
Really, I believe this should be lowered (*gasp!* Did I just say that?). I believe the only reason we needed to require some amount of renewable energy is because we needed the low carbon power source. But if we get cap and trade, this is really redundant. Plus, we shouldn't be picking what we think will be "the winners". We only need to set the requirements to make a fair playing field, and let the market decide.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby Router on Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:15 pm

In a nut shell, the only thing Cap and Trade will do for America is to run all major corperations, who are NOT already off our shores overseas.Would you really stick around where you are getting taxed and regulated or would your company see China or other countries not worried about these things as the open "Free" countries ready to embrace your lack of need for emission regulation? Wouldn't that make good business sence? If this thing passes, it will not only be an end for America as the Capitolist Icon but an end to American way of life as we know it.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby glitch on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:02 am

not to worry router, these bills are always full of loopholes.. its just a big show.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby 3s.WyldGoat on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:02 am

In a nut shell, the only thing Cap and Trade will do for America is to run all major corperations, who are NOT already off our shores overseas.Would you really stick around where you are getting taxed and regulated or would your company see China or other countries not worried about these things as the open "Free" countries ready to embrace your lack of need for emission regulation? Wouldn't that make good business sence? If this thing passes, it will not only be an end for America as the Capitolist Icon but an end to American way of life as we know it.



End of American way of life? Seriously? Putting a limit on carbon isn't that bad of an idea, unless of course you really don't give a shit about how much you pollute. The US is pretty much one of the ONLY countries left in the world that hasn't signed the Kyoto protocol, and now your about to embark on a, may I say, mini-kyoto. Of course, China is an exception... to almost every rule.

It's pretty sick to look at stats and see the rest of the world at under 900 Metric tons/yr.. and then look at Canada/US at +1600.

"The production of electricity in the U.S. produces about 9.5 tons of CO2 per person per year, compared to 2.4 tons per person per year in China, 0.6 in India, and 0.1 in Brazil" Australia does however surpass the US per capita, but overall they have less at the end of a year.

I haven't seen the bill, but if it resembles anything like the kyoto, it won't stop emitions. Simply slow it down, by let's say 10-20%. That's not going to make a business go down. Especially if that 20% is to be reached in 15 years from now.

Now, that was the greenpeace in me. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING you change that becomes countrywide will affect everyone in it. Especially something as big as this. Your either with it, or your not. You either support trying to save the planet by reducing the shit your creating, or you keep on trucking and make our polar bears drown (ok, now my greenpeace is done).

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby awp-killer on Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:36 am

Router wrote:If this thing passes, it will not only be an end for America as the Capitolist Icon but an end to American way of life as we know it.


Wow. Yes, we will all be buying electricity from china, and they will be our new overlords. [/sarc]

1. Electricity can't be produced overseas.
2. Cap and Trade almost exclusively affects electricity, not manufacturing. Energy Information Agency Report: Key finding #2
3. There are trade tariffs in the bill to prevent outsourcing.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby Router on Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:31 pm

Electricity will be the only thing produced in America when they are all done with the Cap and tax. Who will get the benefit of the Money paid to pollute? The energy companies will pass that added tax onto the American Consumer, You and me. Some estimates say the price of electricity can reach to 90%, is that cool with you? Not me!
Higher price of elecrticity
more jobs going overseas
and even if Al Gore didn't invent the internet, he Did invent Global Warming!
Oh by the way, Green Peace does not back this bill either!

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby 3s.WyldGoat on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:15 pm

Since the Waxman-Markey bill left the Energy and Commerce committee, yet another fleet of industry lobbysists has weakened the bill even more, and further widened the gap between what Waxman-Markey does and what science demands. As a result, Greenpeace opposes this bill in its current form. We are calling upon Congress to vote against this bill unless substantial measures are taken to strengthen it.



I think Green Peace is going against the bill for another reason than yours Router.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby Router on Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:29 pm

They are against it because it is Fundamentally flawed, as you pointed out.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby 3s.WyldGoat on Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:15 am

They think it's flawed for another reason than yours is all.

You are thinking job-wise. They are thinking it's too much of a pussy bill and should be more strict.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby awp-killer on Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:59 pm

awp-killer wrote:2. Cap and Trade almost exclusively affects electricity, not manufacturing. Energy Information Agency Report: Key finding #2

Router wrote:Electricity will be the only thing produced in America when they are all done with the Cap and tax.


Why do you do that? You are just ignorantly asserting falsehoods. You don't look it up to see if it is true, you just say it. I tell you why you are wrong, and I even take all the work out for you, by giving you a nice link to a nonpartisan report. You completely ignore it, and the very next thing you do is say it again! I guess it is more important to be heard than it is to be right.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby -PC-Taishar on Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:53 am

What is "cap and trade"?

Another ingenious method to reward your cronies and penalize your enemies.

Why are we so worried about greenhouse gases anyway?

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby awp-killer on Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm


-PC-Taishar
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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby -PC-Taishar on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:26 am

Seriously? I thought this was one point I wasn't gonna have to get into it with you on AJ. You're too smart. All this crap about greenhouse gases is just that CRAP. It pisses me right off the left will scream and moan about scare tactics with the threat level, but be damned if that isn't EXACTLY what they do with this global warming bit. News flash the earth goes through hot and cold cycles. The US has been a heavily industrialized nation since the early 1900's and as recently as the 70's the stupid ass left was screaming bloody murder about an impending ice age if we didn't clean up our act. Now all of a sudden it's global warming. DOH what's that you say. The Global Mean temperature has dropped over the past couple years? No problem we'll just use the catch phrase CLIMATE CHANGE. Now we can scare them whether the temp is going up or the temp is going down.

Now back to the lecture at hand. WHO GIVES A RAT'S ASS whether global warming is real or not. The fact of the matter is. China is rapidly becoming the next superpower. They own inordinate amounts of our debt, their laws are now more capitalist friendly than our own, and their industry is growing by leaps and bounds. Guess what: they are not bound by cap and trade. This will be yet another reason for major industry and manufacturing to leave the US and head for cheap labor, cheaper taxes, and more profit friendly power grids.

Consider this: I don't think anyone can argue that California is the most liberal of all the states. Starting at UC berkley, this plague of progressivism has infected the whole god damned state and now they cannot balance their budget. You know what many tax payers got for their tax refund this year? IOU's. No I'm not shitting you. I live here now. I hear the locals talking about it all the time (I still pay SC taxes because of my active duty status). They are sick and tired of this incompetent government. In addition to the lack of a balanced budget, their laws are so socialist, businesses and people are leaving the state in droves. This compounds the problem of balancing the budget because less people means less taxes. So what do the intellectual superstars in the state senate do? They raise taxes so they can attempt to keep the same income. However, this drives more businesses, and families out of the state. It's a vicious cycle and these ignorant pricks have yet to figure out what they are doing wrong.

So if you want to know what progressivism has in store for the United States you need look no further than the good ole State of California. Where the general populace can vote down legalizing gay marriage on TWO seperate ballot measures and STILL have to worry about it being placed on the ballot again in 2010.

I would proof read but I'm dog ass tired. And now rather riled up. I'm going to bed. In the end Cap and Trade was bullshit. It was shoved down America's throat despite majority opposition, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it now except point and laugh/cry as all our manufacturing goes elsewhere. I be GM stays here in the US though and I bet they get a large portion of these 'equally rationed' free pollution credits....go figure. Good to know a portion of my paycheck is feeding fat ass lazy UAW fucks.

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Re: What is Cap and Trade all about?

Postby awp-killer on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:02 am

-PC-Taishar wrote:Seriously? I thought this was one point I wasn't gonna have to get into it with you on AJ. You're too smart. All this crap about greenhouse gases is just that CRAP. It pisses me right off the left will scream and moan about scare tactics with the threat level, but be damned if that isn't EXACTLY what they do with this global warming bit. News flash the earth goes through hot and cold cycles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific ... ate_change
Scientific bodies' statements that global warming is mostly manmade over the last 50 years:

Agree/Disagree/Non-committal: 45-0-6

That is not including 32 national science academies, which are all signatories of joint statements in agreement.

The US has been a heavily industrialized nation since the early 1900's and as recently as the 70's the stupid ass left was screaming bloody murder about an impending ice age if we didn't clean up our act. Now all of a sudden it's global warming. DOH what's that you say. The Global Mean temperature has dropped over the past couple years? No problem we'll just use the catch phrase CLIMATE CHANGE. Now we can scare them whether the temp is going up or the temp is going down.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling
The Scientific community has never accepted that "global cooling" conjecture of the 70s. But global warming deniers are trying to rewrite history to try and ruin the credibility of scientists. Even when global cooling was hyped in the media, most scientific papers were predicting warming. Similar to how the media falsely hyped global cooling in the 70s, they are falsely hyping a fasle debate about global warming today.

The US has been a heavily industrialized nation since the early 1900's and as recently as the 70's the stupid ass left was screaming bloody murder about an impending ice age if we didn't clean up our act.
Ah yes, a favorite boogieman, liberalism. Find me a source showing the "left was screaming bloody murder about an impending ice age", and I will join you in saying that was retarded. But I think this is just another case of crazy people rewriting history to suit their agendas.



Consider this: I don't think anyone can argue that California is the most liberal of all the states. Starting at UC berkley, this plague of progressivism has infected the whole god damned state and now they cannot balance their budget.
Once again, it's the liberal boogieman's fault!

I guess it has nothing to do with the Great Recession. It has nothing to do with California got hit harder by the housing market than any other state, which is creating plummeting property tax revenues. It has nothing to do with the fact that state legislators are handicapped by mandates directly from the people via proposition voting that California is not allowed to raise taxes, while at the same time California can't make necessary cuts because they are also mandated via proposition voting. No, it's because of a liberal boogieman.

You say the state has budget problems because they are liberal. By that logic, I could say the state has an incredible economy (larger than every country but eight) because of it's liberal ideology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... nominal%29

Which states have the strongest economies, per capita? Liberal states (and a few sparsely populated states with large amounts of natural resources). I'm not saying that is why these states have strong economies. What I am trying to show is correlation isn't necessarily causation, and simplistic arguments and scapegoats will get you nowhere except maybe on tv.

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