Give him a fair shake!

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-PC-Taishar
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Give him a fair shake!

Postby -PC-Taishar on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:04 pm

Well I'd like to, but his first major bit of legislation: Close Gitmo. Well, that doesn't sound too bad now does it? I, for one would like it to remain open but I can see why some leftists or democrats would like it closed. Worthy of a good debate at least. But then I read this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_al_qaida

For those of you that won't bother to click, here's the headline:
Released detainee now Yemen al-Qaida commander

Yes folks a mere day after signing papers to begin the closing process of Guantanamo Bay holding facility President Obama is faced with this headline. Not a good start in my book.

Yes, I know, Obama didn't release him, the Bush administration did. I would just like to point out though that this guy was released into Saudi custody, and releasing the current detainees to their respective countries is part of Obama's plan for closing Gitmo.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby buzz on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:07 pm

I thought I heard just yesterday that they haven't decided what to do with the detainees? Either jail them up in the US or some ally countries or what.. Is this not the case?

-PC-Taishar
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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby -PC-Taishar on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:18 pm

They've tossed around a few ideas. One was to bring them here to Camp Pendleton. Nothing is decided you are correct, but releasing them to the custody of their host nation is the one being tossed about the most. Hopefully this headline will detract from that option.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:56 am

well some of these guys aren't going to get an open armed welcome at their home country.

theres the "fear" that they will get killed by their home countries even though they might be found inocent here.

guantanamo has to go just because everyone knows about it and it's just horrible PR. it's not like we don't have
thousands of places where they could be kept and i'm sure others are being kept.

i don't even know why we have people captive for so long. if you can't get something out of these guys why
not just kill them or let them go before anyone knows they were captured? i know there will be inocents in there
but even if you kill every single one thats not more than people that die as a result of regular combat missions.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby MaDSpartus on Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:25 am

Wait, close the base or the holding facility? I cant see closing the base because of the bad PR, but yeah maybe move out all the captives to a new location

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:21 am

yeah not the base. i don't think thats going away ever. just get rid of the inmates so it goes away.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby awp-killer on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:02 am

I don't know of any other policies that have been more damaging to our goodwill around the world than our interrogation policy and gitmo. Surely closing gitmo is the only reasonable thing to do.


I would just like to point out though that this guy was released into Saudi custody, and releasing the current detainees to their respective countries is part of Obama's plan for closing Gitmo.


We could take all of them and try them in the US or military tribunals or whatever. The only reason Bush hasn't allowed that is because then they would get 'due process', which is specifically why Bush sent them to gitmo to avoid. If Bush sent some back to other nations, it's probably because they couldn't even make a case against the guy (in which case we shouldn't be holding them).

Many of these detainees may not have even done anything wrong. But now that we have wrongly held someone indefinitely without evidence or due process, we may have just created our own home-brewed gitmo terrorists. It's a horrible policy.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby HangOver on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:07 pm

they aren't american citizens and thus don't have our rights. they aren't entitled to due process. they are enemy combatants. if they didn't want to end up at gitmo they shouldn't have picked up an ak47 and shot at our soldiers. or aided those that do.

are there "innocent" people being detained at gitmo? maybe. depends on how you define innocent. i honestly couldn't care any less about any of them.

however, i think shutting down the detainment center at gitmo is a good idea for the simple fact that it's too highly scrutinized. send the worthless fucks somewhere the media doesn't know about.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby Toede on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:24 pm

Screw what people think about our interrogation policy, if we can get information that will save soldiers lives I say do it. You think that they follow any type of laws on torture? I could only imagine what those people who have been captured by al quada are going through. All we do it make them feel like they are going to drown. If that saves lives so be it, We should go release all of them in the middle of the Sahara and say good luck =)

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby -wicked-toon-X on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:03 pm

the issue with not doing torture is that the US is a nation of laws and better than they are, that is why you
don't want to be doing something that will lower our side to theirs. there has to be a side that is clearly right
in the eyes of the world, otherwise you lose all support.

i know that sounds kind of weak but that's what it comes down to. when a place where you do interrogations at
is this well known and with a negative view that's not a good thing. if you ask random people anywhere around
the wolrd they might not know where it is or where iraq is but they'll know that they heard Guantanamo bay is a
bad place where the US tortures.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby HangOver on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:09 pm

i think it's funny that people honestly think that the US has only recently begun torturing people.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby -PC-Taishar on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:41 pm

A few things. I've been to quite a few SERE courses and next week I'm goin to the grand daddy one (should be a real riot..think gi jane). But in every single one, they tell you that physical torture is a HORRIBLE way to gain information. The ONLY reason this place is such a huge PR drain is because the media made it that way. I guarantee you our 'interrogators' know much more than the public about gleaning information from captured enemy fighters, and the fact of the matter is 95% of the time that does NOT include physical torture. Do some of the detainees get roughed up a bit? Sure. But hello we are fighting a war, the few that actually do get 'tortured' are probably the ones that deserve it. And yes, some humans do deserve to be tortured.

The problem (as I see it) with the lefts side of this issue is that they continue to see good in people and never address the bad side of human nature. We are fighting some very bad people. People that do not deserve the right to live in society. Our society, Afghan society, Iraqi society, none of them. Having a place to hold these monsters outside of US soil is an excellent policy and one that takes balls to implement. The very idea that such a place exists is reason to give many would-be terrorists pause. Soon even that threat will be gone.

Now speaking as someone who has been on the ground over there. I can think of at least one major repercussion this will have. I believe that having Gitmo around and knowing what it stands for, many commanders are more willing to take prisoners. Without such a facility many commanders will feel the onus lies on them to decide what to do with men they capture. I can assure you this in the end will be much less humane than Gitmo. While prisoners are not afforded due process, they are still being processed within some sort of legal framework. They are eventually tried in most cases, and many have been found guilty. There are also many many more that have relinquished excellent intelligence and afforded us the opportunity to target and kill other terrorists operating in the Middle East.

What sickens me is that the gitmo thing closing is just a media circus. Nobody really knows what goes on there. It's just another way to polarize society. It's fucking stupid. Honestly AJ do you REALLY care about the small percentage of people in there that are innocent and just 'happened' to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I don't want to get too into it but I swear the more I talk to progressives the more I think they are just naive to the world and are not really aware of what these people are capable of. It's like 9-11 never happened. And that if we just play nice and negotiate, then the extremists will just play nice with us from now on. The American penal system also has innocent people detained many of them much 'less guilty' than those detained at gitmo. However, you don't hear a big shit storm about that. The bottom line is that no system of justice is going to get 100% criminals and 0% innocents. There will always be victims, but the idea is to snag as many of the bad guys as possible, and sometimes that takes a harsher hand than many people are willing wield.

"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell

Rough men

There's a character trait that's decided by fate
Comes (sadly) to many, far too faint, far too late.
They won't face the aggressor, stand up to his ire
They have not the will to fight his fire with fire.
So they bend over backwards to see all sides as fair,
Till they're faced with dragon breath fire in their hair.
Like our brethren in France, who'd know better than we,
Yet seem never to learn, seem doomed never to see.

Yes, it seems there are some who're determined by fate,
To possess not the courage to step up to the plate,
Who shrink from all threat because nothing's worth war.
But how can they know lest they've been there before?
Thank God some have courage, the will, yes, the grace,
To stand for the shirkers, stand strong in their place.
Thank God we have stalwarts who'll stand for us all,
Who will rise to the challenge at their nation's call.

The faint-hearted, who fear, whose reaction is flight,
Have no comprehension of those who will fight.
To hide their own trepidation they attempt to demean
The rough men, who defend them, as barbaric, obscene.
Yet these rough men stand ready, hard weapons to hand,
To put placaters behind them, draw a line in the sand,
To preserve for the peaceniks what they won't defend,
So their own unearned freedom won't perish, won't end.

To appeasers, rough men are coarse government tools.
To rough men, appeasers are dumb delusional fools.

Russ Vaughn
2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division
Vietnam 65-66

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby Cane on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:37 am

What you fail to see though, Tai, is that McCain was the first one to campaign for it throughout the presidential campaign, not Obama. True story.

As far as where the inmates will end up? No one knows. There's been so much talk about placing them on US Soil, but that won't happen considering it could potentially change the legal status of some of them just because they planted their foul feet here.

I do think that GITMO needs to be closed, not because of the media circus, but because how that place has been handled. It's more of a political marking of the end of an "error" than anything else. The CIA and their utter failures of directors tried to save face and used other tactics to try and pry information out of terrorists. You can sit there and argue all day long that if it's for the safety of a few, it's worth it.....but I look at it as us being as dishonorable as the next by denying people their Geneva Convention rights. Rights that we agreed to, as a League of Nations. At least give them that.

I can't speak for what goes on GITMO, because I've never been there around the prisoners (I did Avionics there, more than once), but I can speak for what happened overseas. And when you see Interrogators line people up in a dark room and lock and load weapons constantly, or playing Jingle Bells on a bullhorn for 72 hours straight *twitch*, that's just simply fucked up.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby 3s.WyldGoat on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:07 am

Bring in Jack Bauer. He will figure out what's going on.

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Re: Give him a fair shake!

Postby HangOver on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:39 am

3s.WyldGoat wrote:Bring in Jack Bauer. He will figure out what's going on.


DAMMIT CHLOE WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS!

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